101 michael theile
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Michael Reiley: Hello, this is Michael Reiley. Today, I'm in conversation with Michael Joshin Thiele.
Who is an AICPA culture consultant and founder and president of Apis. Arborea a nonprofit focused on honeybee conservation through deep ecology. And ecosystem based strategies.
We have a beautiful and wide ranging. Discussion today, or we talk about. The cultural, spiritual, and ecological dimensions. Of natural honeybee apian life.
All today on the Sounds of SAND podcast presented by Science and Nonduality.
. I'm here with Michael Thiele on the Sounds of Sand podcast. Thanks so much for being here today.
Michael Joshin Thiele: Thank you so much for having me, Michael. It's such an honor.
Michael Reiley: Just starting with the very basic of how did you get into bees?
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah, that's always a very interesting question. It took me a while. I had a relative back when I was still living in Germany who kept bees. He was a beekeeper. And, of course, anyone who just sees bees becomes enthralled and and quite inspired by them. And so that was my first exposure.
But then later on, after I moved to California over 20 years ago I, there was a winter time where I was in a three month retreat in the middle of the Ventana wilderness mountains. And I started dreaming about bees. There were several dreams that came to me. And after that period, when I, when we went back to our home It really, I felt very much drawn to bringing that, following that dream and asked around and there was a beekeeper and he was very kind to me.
And he loaned me some used bee boxes and I put them next to my house. We lived at that point in this tiny little cabin, 400 square feet. And all of a sudden the swarm came and it felt like it was circumambulating our house. I didn't know what to do. And walked there and pushed the lid a little bit to the side because the opening was very small and that enabled them all to move in.
And my sense, the sensation I had was that of a genie moving into the bottle. And that was the beginning of my journey with bees.
Michael Reiley: Nice. Do you remember the dream specifically? The bee dream you had?
Michael Joshin Thiele: It has been a long time ago, over 20 years ago, and it was just like a calling dream. I had to follow them. And I felt really what I still remember is how deeply I was touched in my heart. It was not just a dream. There was something that had meaning that needed to be followed.
Michael Reiley: Most like a bee as a spirit animal.
Michael Joshin Thiele: Oh, yeah, that's really a beautiful way of putting it, Michael. That may have been it been. And it was a very intense time being in the mountains. It's a Zen monastery where we sat for three months straight every day from five in the morning to nine at night in stillness. And there was basically no electricity.
It was a very simple life that was governed by temple life, sitting, eating in the zendo, that's how the meditation hall is called. And that is, that was a time of gathering the mind, gathering the heart, but also stepping into deep vulnerability, stepping into the larger field of what we perceive as I and with it come often questions of who am I in, in this body?
What is life? What is my role? I play this time around and whatever our questions are, but that is definitely the An environment that brings up all unfinished business
And also the beauty of being the beauty of being a life.
Michael Reiley: And has your relationship with bees continued to reveal aspects of the Dharma like the collective self and things like that through Being with bees for so long
Michael Joshin Thiele: It has definitely I lived with my wife for eight years in residential practice at San Francisco Zen Center. So we lived on top of grounds for eight years. And during that time, bees came to me and I started my journey with bees and immediately it was very obvious how one was so intimately interwoven with the other in traditional monastic environments, bees have always been interwoven.
A strong presence on temple grounds. And if one looks at, for example, monastic codes and the values that represent, they are very much reflected in the life of honeybees and the values we can perceive coming from that field. So there was a natural match. And then, of course. When I continued this journey with bees what emerges is this deep inquiry and curiosity into this.
I like to refer to them as a phenomenon, as an apian phenomenon, and what does it hold and what does it mirror and what can it point towards to in terms of human culture. An inquiry and s spiritual search. And so many citrus and chance that would point towards that direction.
For example Dogen this zen priest from the 12th century or something like that he said. To study the way is to study the self, and to study the self is to forget the self, and to forget the self is to be actualized by the myriad things. I get goosebumps when I recite it. But here I find that it really speaks to a realization that has been achieved, that's not the perfect word, by apians.
So I'd like to, instead of calling them honeybees, I refer to them as apians. And we can talk about language later. But so as if the apians realized just that. That by transcending this human sense of self, they could, they were able, they are able to step into a field that comes with properties that are inconceivable as long as we stay within this single self. And that is just one example how Dharma, like you call it Dharma, or Dharma is overlapping or merging with the apian world. And I, and that brings us also then to the relevance. of Apeian culture, of Apeian wisdom, for the human in this very time of crisis we find ourselves in this huge crisis and this huge inquiry for another way of being.
Michael Reiley: Beautiful. Yeah. I think we will get to that part of it because that's, I think, one of the most profound parts of your work with Apis Arborea. So first let's just, I just wanted to find out, so the terminology Bee verse apian, what, why was that distinction made?
Why did you decide to use that instead?
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah, language is very powerful, right? We say, drop one word and It comes with baggage, it comes with association that go like dominoes, one domino gets clicked and the whole run goes. And that is one reason why the naming of Apes Arborea came into being, because the Latin for honeybee, is Apis mellifera, the melly, the honey.
And so this beingness is defined through commodity. And we wanted to shift the focus with shifting language, with bringing awareness to language. And therefore, we define it now through habitat, Apis arborea. The one who lives in the, within the arboreal realm, within trees. And the same with the word honey bees or European honey bees.
Again, we have the honey in there. We have a geographic, a geographical limitation that defines A names, a species that is actually which that has its geo historical range, not limited to Europe, but it's wide into Eastern Europe, into Africa, all of Africa. So you see here, and here we really wanted to, , initiate new compass points through language, and therefore.
Currently, we call them apians, and this may be a temporary naming, but it right now we landed on it, and it has a good feeling to it, Michael.
But in the end, it's really stepping out of some of the linguistic defaults that are very powerful, that also affect our ability to perceive and to understand.
And by creating new language that represents a different way of seeing and thinking is really important.
Michael Reiley: . Yeah, that word apian obviously evokes sapien.
Michael Joshin Thiele: Oh, that's so true. Yeah. I haven't thought about it.
Michael Reiley: Yeah. So I'm curious in your connection with apian existence, do you worry about that one way let's say anthropomorphizing of the experience of the apian from the sapien? Or how do you keep that that a two way empathetic connection there?
Michael Joshin Thiele: What are you pointing at when you say anthropomorphizing?
Michael Reiley: Kind of projecting human values of culture and organization and notions of the self onto another organism.
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah, that's really a beautiful topic you're bringing up.. I think that again, what is the premise on which we move, on which we live, on which we perceive and understand and ask questions? And apians are, for me, a teaching in a way of seeing that that understands the non human, the other than human world, in a similar way as we would perceive in that all beings, including rocks and clouds and air, as having the capacities of agency and sentience. And a new word I recently learned. that is conation. Conation as the mental and emotional faculty of purpose and desire or will to perform an action. Or to put it in other, in another context here Eduardo Cohen He's an amazing anthropologist. He wrote how forests think. He called, he talks about an ecology of selves.
So when
you bring up anthropomorphizing,
.
That all comes up that it actually doesn't exist. I would say I'm challenging the concept of that notion in some ways by saying that we are actually We are just part of a very wide ecology of selves. We are not only surrounded by non human selfhood, but we are part of a, of this huge community of beings and the notion to project the human understanding onto the non human and to criminalize it almost.
Or to devalue something through that is possibly a 19th century relic of this, Descartian worldview in terms of mechanics. And that is also the root of beekeeping and the repercussions that we still suffer on from that kind of behavior. Radical dualism. So that's, so you see, this is a very big topic because with your question, you come right to the heart of a shift that we are all part of.
The shift within Western culture where I don't want to speak for others, but I, as a Westerner, I find myself having to rediscover the non human communities. The non human selves that, that as a community and culture, I belong to. And not only do I belong to, but I am constituted through.
Michael Reiley: Beautiful. Yeah. I had the sense from reading your essays and looking at the website that you're not part of that. Like you said, 19th century model of just seeing the apian as a means to an end as a honey producer, that they're not a commodity. There are brothers and sisters in existence in this web of life that we're a part of.
So could you talk a bit about that, about the kind of the traditional ways that bees are exploited for their honey and how they're raised in these boxes and eventually how you found it Apis Haboria as a way to go against that stream of typical beekeeping.
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah. Oh, that's another big question there. Well, we could start. In the mid 19th century, with the inception of the modern Bee Box that is still today, the default system Bee that is being used in beekeeping in parentheses. I actually think beekeeping doesn't exist. We are the ones that are kept. And what was introduced into this Apeian world into Apeian stewardship was mechanics.
And that could only happen. a time when we lost our sense and understanding of the non human as another sentient being. And all of a sudden that enabled us to come up with a design that of a hive box that does not reflect any of the fundamental needs of this other than human being. But it was the design process was governed by mechanics.
by practicality what would work for achieving certain goals, like you mentioned commodities, honey and now it's just here in the U. S., very much it's about pollination services, or what is called pollination services. And that being that lived for millions of years in the womb of trees that was surrounded by another living being that Had, or could follow their own birthrights to grow their soma, their body in the way that made sense.
Just like we do. Our liver is always with the livers. And the heart is always where the heart is. So they could fully they had their birthrights were fully given in that arboreal setting and now all of a sudden we took them out of that, put them in those boxes force them.
To grow their tissue, meaning comb, in straight lines, we forced the spacing in between them. We, those boxes do not provide them with sufficient insulation, which leads to environments that force them into prolonged stress positions. And I'm very careful here with words.
Because one should remember that they are a warm blooded animal, and they, forcing them to live in an environment that doesn't listening match insulation requirements and minimum will affect that being on all levels, that it would be the equivalent of us being constantly underdressed, constantly a little bit freezing, that will do something not only to soma, to metabolism, it also does something to our sense of self, of well being, of happiness, our striving for happiness. You can tell it's a long story,
The mechanics took over. The mechanics were a big break in thousands of years of human apian relationship that had still an understanding of who that being was and accordingly provided for. But now we are in mechanics and that just got worse. Those animals are not even treated as animals anymore in industrial beekeeping.
This is now a new terminology, industrial commercial beekeeping, where bees are being trucked all over the United States. They are really treated as a commodity and not as a living being. There's a lot of money in there. Yeah. It's heart wrenching, really, to witness, to see this. And then not only that that industrial scale of beekeeping could be compared to what we call a CAFO, a concentrated animal feedlot operation.
And even that terminology is problematic. And it is not based in biology, it's based in economics.
Michael Reiley: Sure. Like a factory farm, basically. Like these
it's the same idea. Yeah.
Michael Joshin Thiele: same idea. It's a factory farm but it's living sentient beings that are being treated in that factory farm. And that whole paradigm is governing even all of backyard beekeeping because it is the hub for all logistics. You have beekeepers who want to do good and help the bees and through becoming a beekeeper.
And so they order the bees from that system. And those bees are completely destroyed on some, on many levels, genetically, biotically. Emotionally the bees that would be purchased are not, they are like a Frankenstein being. The queen is not the mother of any of the bees. The bees are not even sisters because they were all grabbed here and there from many hives and thrown together.
And then, yeah it's very problematic. And I, we could no, let me back up here. has so many rabbit's hole to go into. And it's really like a Greek strategy sometimes to observe people, beekeepers who want to help. And do something good, but become unknowingly part of the causes that are the origin of all the suffering of bees.
And not only that, but by bringing then those bees into their backyards, they will impact all the pollinator communities around them. By becoming part of a vectoring of diseases, of vectoring of certain kind of genetics. Vectoring of diseases. biotic makeups within the apian. It's endless. So is industrial beekeeping in a nutshell.
Michael Reiley: And then, so do you want to transition to talk about your organization and how you've co, you're working to change that paradigm?
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah. So Apis Aborea was founded out of an impulse, out of a sense that something, another way wanted to come into the world. an alternative way. It was really, Michael, it felt like this impulse was, wanted to come into the world and it just needed someone to put some shape and substance around it. And that's how AP Saboria got started. And another factor was that new knowledge was emerging, new knowledge of about. Wild apians in the woods in national parks around the corner that were thriving. So to come back briefly to industrial beekeeping, the annual mortality rate in that paradigm, in that kind of, I like to call it a cosmology, the cost within the cosmology of industrial beekeeping, the annual mortality rate is between, let's call it 50 to 90%. Yeah, and that is all due to human causes versus this the wild cosmology, apians living on their own terms in forests, in remote regions that are not affected by any beekeeping. And here we see an annual mortality rate of maybe 20, 25%. You have the resilience on one side and you have this deep suffering on the other. And there's also this belief within this industrial beekeeping paradigm that without treating, without human interaction, bees would cease to exist. When in fact, Because of the manipulations, because of the treatments they're ailing, they're suffering. We have, that system is decreasing genetic diversity.
It is impacting host parasite rebalancing processes by preventing them through all the practices. And on the other side, in the wild we have a situation where the wisdom of this non human community can inform new pathways forward that lead to resilience and health. This is what we call wilding it's a, some people refer to us as natural selection.
I think the. The sentience and agency has to come, has to be integrated. And so we call this self willed ecological processes. And we are picking up this terminology from a book that is called Rewilding by Isabella Tree from the UK. Maybe you're familiar with that. But yeah, she wrote a whole book about it.
And I loved how she calls this self willed ecological processes. And there we have it. We have the agency and sentience and this wisdom within the non human world that has the capacity and the resources and the knowledge and the will forces to deal with challenging situations. And so Apes of Arborea here is attempting in understanding those processes to protect those regions and see what can we learn how can we integrate this into cultivated landscapes, so called cultivated landscapes.
How can we learn from the wild to say it in one sentence? And that is. What we try to do, and we, our work ranges from research to education and a lot of pilot projects to see how can we figure this out, how could this work. So piloting is a big portion of our work. I really, Michael, I really like to think in terms of constantly attempting to something.
I don't want to claim to have a solution, but it's so much more exciting to think in terms of attempting, or continuously inquiring and trying things out. And I listening back, constantly listening with all our senses and mental capacities to listen to how we move through the world and then incorporate every all new impulses.
So it's a continuous process.
Michael Reiley: Beautiful. It's funny you mentioned the word listening because one question that came to me when you first described your bee dream, your apian dream that led you on this path. The first thing that I heard was the sound of the apian sound. I love that. That's one of my favorite sounds ever.
Like when you walk through a wild flower patch and it's just in this panoramic moving all throughout your head and it's has subtlety and depth and texture to it. Could you talk a bit about that, that the music of the bees?
Michael Joshin Thiele: Oh, you bring tears to my eyes right now. I have goosebumps all over my body. And, oh my goodness, the after having used some incarnation of boxes for years, in my early years, the day came when we switched into log hives, so simulations, like hollow tree trunks, and we call them now tree nests. I remember to this day, opening one up and looking into it, and it was one of those threshold moments.
I looked and didn't know what I was seeing, actually. That's how far removed it was from the mechanics. That I had started with over then. And not only did I not understand what I was seeing, but I was hearing something that is so deep. That is so beyond words. And it gave me a flavor of something.
And I'm still following that. Over the years it became part of an, a search for a face right now the two of us are talking to each other. We can look into each other's faces and we understand, we get an idea of who we are. And it is something very fundamental for communication between two beings.
With the apian, it seems as if that face. may not be perceivable by our regular senses. And not only that, but we, it's not clear whether that face is constituted through the individual beings, or rather the singularity of the true being. And that true being, I would say, is invisible. And the way to perceive the face is through our heart.
That's my experience. The heart can perceive that face. And in the process, it has to do, what comes to it, is voice. What we refer to initially as apian sound, we could also call voice. It's actually a voice. And after some years, we recorded that voice with good equipment and collaborated with John Stuart Reed in the UK.
I don't know whether you're familiar with him. He's a, he works with sound and he does many things with sound. He's a leading researcher of sound, but he also is imaging sound with a sinescope You can send in your own voice. or that of your loved ones, and he will image it.
Michael Reiley: I've seen that. Yeah.
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah. And it looked just for our listeners, it looks like different, it looks like variations of snow crystals. And just to give you an idea. And John said people with a strong spiritual background when they, when their voices imaged it. It takes on seven and 14 fold formations. I'm just giving you an example.
So we sent him a recording of the apian voice, and that's just what he could find. And he was blown away. So one human voice is leading to, can lead to those formations. And then imagine the apian voice that is constituted by 20, 000 individuals. That's not the right terminology here, but for the sake of description, we have 000 individuals voicing together, and that holds properties similar to what I just described about the human voice before.
So it's a voice. And I wish, Michael, we could right now go into the woods. and listen to that voice. It is so many times I would be standing on a ladder because they all are far off the ground. I would stand on a ladder and I would open a tree nest and just be overcome with tears. And but not in a sad way at all, but as if it's It is a moment of deep homecoming and that is a, it's a, yeah, there are no words really but I think we may all know those moments where there is no thought, there is just a sense of I am home. I am, I belong and everything belongs to me. There's no separation on what this is. It's something happens
And I think that is a tremendous gift the apians bring into the world that for us to be in their presence, so to speak.
Michael Reiley: I do want to get into, Your study of apian culture and how that can resonate and what we can learn from that as a species as like I said earlier, brothers and sisters in the same universe. But just as a kind of simple mundane question, do you think we should be eating honey and using beeswax as a species?
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah, you shouldn't ask me that question.
So we spoke about birthrights a moment ago, and how we can design environments that grant birthrights again. And in that context, we have to talk about ethics. And and I think when we look at ethics and birthrights together that will determine the answer to your question, whether it would make sense to eat honey and use beeswax, or maybe we could ask ourselves what is the source of the honey and the beeswax? What are the conditions out of which that has come?
Michael Joshin Thiele: And here that question led me to not using beeswax candles anymore. I'm using now an olive oil lamp instead. And I don't, I try not to buy honey. The honey I have is very little. And I do believe that in the end, And ethics have to be the way we how should I say that? To answer this question hinges really on ethics and how we, how bees work. And here Apis Arborea is also attempting to find solutions for this question and How can we design with ethics in mind a nest environment that then will create what we could call an interface, an ethical, ethically sound interface that is good for all parties involved.
And there's lots of room for innovation.
Michael Reiley: Beautiful. That's a great answer. And
so I know this is another big question that can't be answered in the limited time we have, but could you describe a bit what you have discovered over these years and decades of Apian culture? What is the culture?
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah, this is a very wide field. I want to start with saying that for many years, I didn't even associate the word culture with a non human world. And it just came over time. And I'm going to just touch on a few elements of that. The most recent one is that by observing apians in the wild. There's sometimes motions and gestures that are visible, that we can witness, that few years back I would have described as instinctual preferences.
But what comes to me more and more is that it's actually cultural, that there is a culture. It's not genetics. It's a culture of beingness that expresses itself, that is has evolved over generations that also has to do with spirit. So the way this animal expresses itself is culture based. The other aspect is, in terms of culture, if we, if that would work in this context, is that of, um, as let me start, let me try to get to it from a different angle
As selves, we enveloped by culture and we are creating culture and we are part of wide constituencies of culture, creating selves, apians are doing something very interesting. That is. that they appear to our eyes as of individuals, as thousands of insects, cold blooded insects, yet by transforming, by further developing a sense of self, they're becoming a warm blooded mammalian like animal. The power that is within this process of letting oneself go,
Allows us to tap into a field that is beyond the imagination of the single self. So only because of, and now I'm coming to some cultural elements here what we could call cultural elements, only because as a single self, I dedicate Everything I do to the benefit of all. Only the moment when I surrender all my capacities, all my qualities to something that is larger than me.
When the moment I, whoever I is, the moment, I perceive I as all. Something shifts. The moment we experience that the formerly non I is actually us, that we are us only, that moment is radically transformative. That led to the aps. In the case of the aps, it led to the rise of a mammalian beingness for someone in the insect realm. And that is, to me, most, one of the most powerful teachings coming from the aps, that it's this teaching about self and others. A teaching of what can happen if we loosen our grip on self and others. What happens when we attempt to explore the field outside of dichotomies, of dualism and experience truly how we are us, how we is us. And in particular, in the 21st century, when we are surrounded by multiple crises, we are in the sixth mass extinction. I think it is the perfect environment to come to those places of deep belonging. And the apians show us the potential that lies within. We should imagine, right? We have 25, 000 bees or whatever, how many thousands there are, there is no property, no private property. All there is really dedicating every single breath of one's life to the benefit of everybody. And let's look at eating as a gesture. Eating is giving life, right? Eating we describe in the apian realm, eating is what we name, call pollination. Eating is allowing innumerable beings to procreate, to continue to live.
That is, so even in that gesture of eating and self sustenance, it is still an act of giving life and the wisdom of decision making. It's quite inspiring to watch in the Apeian world. There is no one who says, I have the best idea, I. It is always, what is the best idea for all of us? And there are certain times in the year when, for example, Apeians give birth. And that is what we call a swan emerges, this birth giving, and it's the residing mother that leaves. with thousands of bees. But then they are unsheltered. They are very vulnerable and they have to find a new place to move into. And that decision making process is shows, reflects on the wisdom of how they make decisions. And that is always with having the well being of everybody in mind. I don't have to stand out.
I'm yeah, if I stand out, that's a problem, actually. And maybe one last thing about culture, and that's very experiential. And that is what I touched on when we spoke about voice, apian voice. And that is to really being in their presence holds something that is so nourishing to the human soul, to the human heart. And when you spoke, speak to just regular beekeepers, they will tell you the same thing.
They come, sit next to the bees and they can let go of things. And I think that shows. Just a sliver of the power of being in their presence as almost like a spiritual resource or refuge, a spiritual refuge that apians are for sapiens. Now I'm using your word.
Michael Reiley: Yeah. No, that's so beautifully put and presenting a mosaic, of this apian culture, which is so much more complex than we can get into today. But one thing that comes to mind is as you're projecting this out into six mass extinction and just, The polycrisis that are happening all around us.
It feels so right to, to explore apians as they are a keystone species, right? If they go extinct, we're in really deep trouble, not only humans, but most. Yeah. So to look to them and that with the wisdom of the way they naturally live for solutions again, not in an extractive way, but in a Like you used the word wisdom, which I, always put noting what would be a good title for this episode.
And I think Apian Wisdom, it would be a nice title for this episode.
Michael Joshin Thiele: absolutely. That's a very beautiful title. And I think apians are in this time we live in, are an opportunity to step out of the box, like literally, metaphorically, programmatically. And that's what we do with Apes Arborea.
Michael Reiley: Yeah.
Michael Joshin Thiele: As, as far as, We can see we try to take things out of the box, and I think it's a theme, a way larger theme that we all are turning and trying to figure out new ways outside that box, and that box that was not present in indigenous cultures. now we have lost something that coming back to Edoardo Kohn here for a moment, that he calls soul blindness, the lost capacity to recognize other selves. I find it so beautiful how he puts it. And if we are, if we stay in the box, we stay in this environment of soul blindness. And what does it, what are the creative impulses that will help us? to become soul seeing again. And that will change everything, the way we perceive, the way we design, the way we self reflect the way we develop our sense of belonging and so forth.
Michael Reiley: Yeah. The opening of our senses and our being to the more than human it sounds extraordinary, but it's actually coming back to the most ordinary, the most basic way of being. The human centric the isolated, where the top species on the food chain, where the top that's. Extraordinary, that's not normal and that's obviously not sustainable as we're seeing across the globe and it's going to
Michael Joshin Thiele: It's beautiful how you put it. Yeah.
Michael Reiley: Yeah,
Michael Joshin Thiele: And think apian are this alchemical opportunity for us. To go through and have also to develop hope and confidence that it is possible because in the non human world, it has been already realized.
Michael Reiley: there's, it's a, the way you phrase it, it's so simple and elegant. It's almost like you could explain it to a young child that we need to get out of the box. And back to the trees out of the skyscrapers and the, square apartment buildings and all this stuff, and just return to the trees, it's like a very beautiful metaphor.
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah, so true, Michael, I just came back from the high Sierras for backpacking and it's almost above treeline and it's every single rock, every Alpine flower, the Alpine yellow legged frogs is, yeah, it brings us back to our soul and this deep belonging and the simplicity of life that holds. this deep refuge.
Michael Reiley: Wonderful. This has been a really illuminating conversation for me. I didn't actually know what to expect, which is often a great place to be in when I'm doing these interviews. And yeah, you've just given me so much to think about and feel and, wonder about. And we'll have links to your website in the show notes, but are there other ways like workshops or things like that, that people can connect with you and your project?
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah, I think the best way is through our website and also through Instagram. That's most current where people can see what we're doing almost on a weekly basis. And all it gives you the visual to it's, you don't see boxes, yeah, indigenous Apeian culture.
Michael Reiley: Lovely.
Michael Joshin Thiele: But those are the best things because the website holds our events calendar and all of that.
And I will send you, I will send you the, an audio recording.
Michael Reiley: Great. That's awesome. Wow. Thank you so much, this has been really a delight for me.
Michael Joshin Thiele: Yeah. And thank you so much for having me, Michael. And thank you for those wonderful questions. I always learn from questions and there were beautiful questions you had.
Michael Reiley: Thank you.
Michael Joshin Thiele: Okay. Take care.
